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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:49:46 GMT -7
The projection has a zodiac around the solar system and one can connect planets and Sun with light lines. This does not work so well since the machine was made for a much larger dome and it can only be adjusted so far. But it really is a nice addition to the planetarium.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:50:23 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 10:41 AM QUOTE(Scott T @ Mar 31 2021, 07:39 PM) * These pictures are truly awesome.
That's what I love about pictures, they help one to understand how a particular device works. Like I never realized that with these series Zeiss, each of the planet cages were on independent ball bearings and allowed to move independently around the central pillar. Also that the Sun and Mercury and Venus projectors were in cages tied together which makes sense as the two planets just move back and forth past the Sun. Brilliant engineering.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:50:58 GMT -7
Posted by: albert Apr 1 2021, 10:44 AM QUOTE(Ron Walker @ Apr 1 2021, 07:41 PM) * That's what I love about pictures, they help one to understand how a particular device works. Like I never realized that with these series Zeiss, each of the planet cages were on independent ball bearings and allowed to move independently around the central pillar. Also that the Sun and Mercury and Venus projectors were in cages tied together which makes sense as the two planets just move back and forth past the Sun. Brilliant engineering.
That's why I just added some more pictures! Would love to see more detail on your machine, Ron.
Happy Easter holidays across half of the planet from us here!
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:51:20 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 10:55 AM QUOTE(albert @ Apr 1 2021, 10:44 AM) * That's why I just added some more pictures! Would love to see more detail on your machine, Ron.
Happy Easter holidays across half of the planet from us here!
You must be working (or playing) late as it is almost 11 am here and must be something similar in the pm over there.
Happy Easter to all of you over there
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:51:39 GMT -7
Posted by: mrgare5050 Apr 1 2021, 11:41 AM That's why I just added some more pictures! Would love to see more detail on your machine, Ron.
I think in Albert and Ron we are witnessing the meeting of two great 'monsters of the midway' planetarium minds!
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:56:23 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 12:02 PM "Were the star plates for the Minolta also made by hand, as they did for years and years at ZEISS? They had a family of Star plate makers, who punched the copper foil plates under the stereo microscope by hand. Today they have young girls ("Sternfädlerin") do the same but instead of punching holes in the plates they have to thread hair thin fiber optic glass strands into each star hole. No wonder these machines are so expensive. but the sky is amazing, the stars are pinpoints of light and extremely bright with just a few LEDS. This is really an enormous progress." My plates were indeed punched by hand and you can see the slight bending at each hole. My understanding is that each magnitude was divided into three different sized holes and not ten like Zeiss did. With a narrow depth of field on this close up picture you can see the slight bending downward at each star hole punch. The plate alignment notch is at the far right and the small piece of glass is frosted and makes a great projection of the Large Magellanic Cloud. Taken from above and backlit you can see with ease the star holes as well as the image of both the large and small Magellanic clouds, even some color added for realism. Another interesting thing is that all of the first magnitude stars are equipped with condensing lenses so that a larger hole can be punched for more light and yet not appear larger then 5mm on the dome. Also color can be easily added to these stars.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:57:06 GMT -7
Here the star plate in set in the projector and is held in place by the condensing lens which screws onto the threads shown.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:57:33 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 12:08 PM QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Apr 1 2021, 11:41 AM) * That's why I just added some more pictures! Would love to see more detail on your machine, Ron. I think in Albert and Ron we are witnessing the meeting of two great 'monsters of the midway' planetarium minds!
I can't help but love this stuff or anyone else who loves this stuff.
Perhaps Albert would agree to be my sister planetarium. I think IPA was doing something like that.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:58:16 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 12:17 PM "What is the diameter of your dome? The two-starball machines had to have their star plates drawn with a distortion to account for the excentric position of the starballs in the dome. can you see any distortions when you rotate the sky? Amazing the Minolta guys could make different plates to order for a smaller dome. The Zeiss guys would certainly not have done that. You certainly were lucky with your projector if the additional adjustments for tweaking planets in a smaller dome were included." My dome is 30 feet in diameter and each of the star plates have a stamp stating 30 ft. Also the main plate on the base of the machine says made for a 30 ft. dome, so yes indeed all of the star plate mesh perfectly on my dome. I guess Minolta took the extra step (at least at that time) as they were new to the planetarium world and would probably bend over backwards to get their share of the market. While I have no documentation for tweaking the planets, it was obvious after studying the mechanism that adjustments were made for this purpose. You will note the small knurled ring on the back of this Venus projector holds the lamp in place and allows for moving the bulb around for brightest image. Note that the edge that faces the gear is filled flat. This allows for the projector to be adjusted upward to allow moving the image back to its proper point near the ecliptic without the ring hitting the drive gear. It is obvious that this was a file job and not a milling machine cut so was not a part of the original projectors design. It was an adjustment to allow for proper alignment of the projector in a smaller dome then it was designed for.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:58:57 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 12:54 PM Looking inside a star globe you can see the lamp as well as the ends of the sixteen star projectors and you can also make out more of the first magnitude condensing lenses.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:59:27 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 01:33 PM "The accuracy for the original Zeiss machines was said to be 1 degree in 1000 years. Meaning they had to have taken into account the excentric trajectories of the planets. Do you have the plates held in place by rollers and the pin & slot mechnisms of the original? I would love to see this up close, since my machine does not have it but the Antikythera mechanism damn well has it!" Finding detailed images of the Zeiss are difficult but I will show you a picture of the Mercury gearing of the original Adler Zeiss III which was recently found after sitting in the dirt for several decades. Past the dirt you can see the two offset plates held in place by rollers at 120 degrees for absolute stability and containing the pin in slot mechanism to allow for the eccentric trajectories of the planet. It is driven by four stacks of gears. Now compare that to the Minolta. They are literally identical except for the gear count and position of the four stacks of gears. Perhaps this was done so as not to violate the patents totally and/or perhaps because of a different main driver speed. It is easy to see that Minolta "borrowed" heavily from the original Zeiss design to produce a world class instrument.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 19:59:47 GMT -7
Posted by: mrgare5050 Apr 1 2021, 01:42 PM Perhaps Albert would agree to be my sister planetarium. I think IPA was doing something like that.
Really, what a cool idea
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 20:00:23 GMT -7
Posted by: albert Apr 1 2021, 02:25 PM QUOTE(mrgare5050 @ Apr 1 2021, 10:42 PM) * Perhaps Albert would agree to be my sister planetarium. I think IPA was doing something like that.
Really, what a cool idea
Now Ron that is REALLY a cool idea. I would be honored to make the Bad Toelz planetarium your twin planetarium. Only I can really not aspire to be such a great craftsman as you- you built yours with your bare hands. Kudos for that again!
Thanks for showing us the pictures of the star plates ! I remember having seen them years ago...when you first got the machine....I cannot do the same, for mine are sealed in and I would not dare to get them out. I beieve they are thinner. And the Minolta ones seem to be thin steel and much more solid-not copper anyway.
How did the guy or lady who punched the holes know where to punch? in the Zeiss system the plan for the star plate was put on the back side of the foil with some kind of photo transfer process. This is what created a problem in the ZKP 1. Oxidizing of the star field- the smaller stars begin to disappear.
These details are fascinating- the offset plates held by rollers are indeed the same principle Bauersfeld & company invented for the second generation of projectors. I am sure this is built so solidly that it will run for another 50 years.
So you also followed the adventure of the Adler Zeiss. I remember having read about it in this forum years ago, at that time it was listed as "missing". - and was very happy to see that the machine has re-surfaced. But in dysmal shape unfortunately. They will have a hard time restoring it- two star projectors are missing entirely. And the gantry the machine hung in is also lost. Anyway it will make a great static show model- another one....in Germany we only have two of the old machines still running, one in Nürnberg, and the other one in Berlin. I'm looking forward to see what they do with it.
For the record-has anyone followed the incredible story of the second prototype of Model 1- it was believed to be lost, too, and it has re-surfaced as well. In much better shape and it's up and running again. Another planetarium freak and amateur astronomer ROMKE SCHIEVINK has found the machine crated up in a museum and brought it back to life. If interested I'll put it in here in its own topic.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 20:01:02 GMT -7
Posted by: Ron Walker Apr 1 2021, 05:57 PM Now Ron that is REALLY a cool idea. I would be honored to make the Bad Toelz planetarium your twin planetarium. Only I can really not aspire to be such a great craftsman as you- you built yours with your bare hands. Kudos for that again! Let's consider it done then. Must find a way to make it official. I should stop reading now or my head will pop. The only reason for my bare hands is that I couldn't afford to hire other hands.Thanks for showing us the pictures of the star plates ! I remember having seen them years ago...when you first got the machine....I cannot do the same, for mine are sealed in and I would not dare to get them out. I beieve they are thinner. And the Minolta ones seem to be thin steel and much more solid-not copper anyway. All of these pictures are posted in other threads which would take forever to find and direct. Perhaps Mr. Gare is right and one should just grab pictures and post them when required.How did the guy or lady who punched the holes know where to punch? in the Zeiss system the plan for the star plate was put on the back side of the foil with some kind of photo transfer process. This is what created a problem in the ZKP 1. Oxidizing of the star field- the smaller stars begin to disappear. Not at all sure how they lined up the holes to be punched as finding any specific info on the Minolta line is like pulling teeth. Luckily the projector lived most of its life in the dryer parts of Texas and moved to an even dryer part of Arizona. I found no rust or oxidizing on any of the parts from ball bearings to slip rings to star plates.These details are fascinating- the offset plates held by rollers are indeed the same principle Bauersfeld & company invented for the second generation of projectors. I am sure this is built so solidly that it will run for another 50 years. What is interesting is that when the planet cages were separated from the main machine it took literally no torque to operate each section. The only lubricant I used after cleaning the pieces was a dry silicone. That does not attract dust or other particles. I found that Pledge is good to the large stationary parts of the machine as again it does not attract or hold dust.So you also followed the adventure of the Adler Zeiss. I remember having read about it in this forum years ago, at that time it was listed as "missing". - and was very happy to see that the machine has re-surfaced. But in dysmal shape unfortunately. They will have a hard time restoring it- two star projectors are missing entirely. And the gantry the machine hung in is also lost. Anyway it will make a great static show model- another one....in Germany we only have two of the old machines still running, one in Nürnberg, and the other one in Berlin. I'm looking forward to see what they do with it. It was the projector I grew up with and made me wonder how it worked and if I could build one. It will need to be taken down to single parts and I would recommend ultrasonic cleaning which has worked wonders for me in similar cases. I would love to see the machine brought back to operational specs and set up to roll into a dome and operate. After all, if they could rebuild the Attwood Globe why couldn't they do the same with this projector. Or if it is too far gone, then get the Zeiss VI back up and running.For the record-has anyone followed the incredible story of the second prototype of Model 1- it was believed to be lost, too, and it has re-surfaced as well. In much better shape and it's up and running again. Another planetarium freak and amateur astronomer ROMKE SCHIEVINK has found the machine crated up in a museum and brought it back to life. If interested I'll put it in here in its own topic. I for one would love a thread devoted to the original Zeiss I. I fount the video of the reconstruction a breath of fresh air and would love more detail. Perhaps you could get Mr. Schievink to join us here and talk about that project. Now, how can we save a Zeiss II/III and get it back into operation.
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Post by Ron Walker on Apr 18, 2022 20:01:28 GMT -7
Posted by: Scott T Apr 2 2021, 03:49 AM These pictures are like gold for those of us who do not have access to such machines - I had no idea that some stars/ objects had additional individual condenser lenses directly attached to the star plates + I just assumed 'fuzzy' objects had a separate projector.
Ron - what is the actual diameter of the star plates + would it be possible to post a photo or two of the condenser lens/lenses in isolation (the one covering the entire plate rather than the mini ones for 1st magnitude stars). I am a bit behind in my write up on the optical projector design thread but I am trying to work through the various options for the condenser lenses.
+ Do you happen to know the focal length of the main condenser lenses?
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