Post by Ron Walker on Apr 16, 2022 12:10:03 GMT -7
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 13 2012, 02:11 PM
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Posted by: Ron Walker Jul 13 2012, 04:08 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 13 2012, 02:11 PM) *
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Hi Gunpower and welcome to OCP.
You indeed have a hole in your head so you will fit in well here. blink.gif
I guess the first question here is do you want a planetarium? Will you be happy with just the traditional night sky or do you want to move at warp speed across the cosmos. If your looking for something to introduce the night sky to your audience, then the A3P is still a great machine. It will be 25,000 years or so before the stars are far enough off to obsolete it. What's it worth? Basically what someone will pay for it. I dumped close to $10K into one and had to completely rebuild it. But then, I really wanted it so it was worth it to me. Others have spent much more and others much less. Moving it from place to place tends to add to the cost.
Parts can be found and systems can be worked around. It could easily continue to work well beyond any of our lifetimes.
So if you want a planetarium, grab it, and we will do all we can to get you up and operating.
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 13 2012, 04:15 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 13 2012, 02:11 PM) *
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Hi and welcome to the group.
Yes, parts are available from Spitz and from others who work on and support these projectors.
Spitz has a pretty good idea of how many are left. Off the record, they generally try to see that these machines are taken out of service and not reused at this point. I would guess that there are less than 100 still in service. I get partly involved with the one at the Hopkins Planetarium in Fremont, CA. I often get the opportunity to play around with it after hours.
If you have a hole in your head, so do most of us here on this forum. I think these machines still have a lot of useful value. I know of several people that privately own them.
Manuals and wiring diagrams are around and can be copied as needed.
Not having done it, I can only speculate about the best way to remove the dome. I think you would want to lower it to the floor (admittedly easier said than done), and then remove the panels one-by-one, starting at the top.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 14 2012, 09:20 AM
We have a partnership with the local astronomy society (I'm the VP). We always encouraged a partnership with the local school planetarium but now it won't come to fruit. The society does public nights here at the park and we thought it would compliment it nicely (especially on cloudy nights). Would think one could merge a digital video program along with the old system on the cheap to pull off a reasonable program.
Right now the nonprofit (park) is running a budget deficit so this is down the list. The Astronomical Society is also strongly considering a second observatory on our property to compliment the one they already have on a different property that is now light polluted.
Thoughts would be a simple plan wrapped around volunteers to compliment the visual programming without the expense of creating an urban planetarium and the headaches, overhead, and staffing that entails.
Of course a major donor could change that vision wink.gif
Also note that the system came with a JHE Planetarium Control System but not sure what that adds to the system and it is a 5 1/4 floppy computer system (along with the control boxes)
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 14 2012, 10:49 AM
BTW, Where on this Spitz system is a model number tag? I think it is an AP4 but one of the science teachers from the school said "3" sounded familiar. I find part number tags but no main tag for the entire system.
Posted by: Ron Walker Jul 14 2012, 10:50 AM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 14 2012, 09:20 AM) *
We have a partnership with the local astronomy society (I'm the VP). We always encouraged a partnership with the local school planetarium but now it won't come to fruit. The society does public nights here at the park and we thought it would compliment it nicely (especially on cloudy nights). Would think one could merge a digital video program along with the old system on the cheap to pull off a reasonable program.
Right now the nonprofit (park) is running a budget deficit so this is down the list. The Astronomical Society is also strongly considering a second observatory on our property to compliment the one they already have on a different property that is now light polluted.
Thoughts would be a simple plan wrapped around volunteers to compliment the visual programming without the expense of creating an urban planetarium and the headaches, overhead, and staffing that entails.
Of course a major donor could change that vision wink.gif
Also note that the system came with a JHE Planetarium Control System but not sure what that adds to the system and it is a 5 1/4 floppy computer system (along with the control boxes)
Not at all sure why they say a 25 foot dome is too small for an upgrade. I think they just want to get rid of the whole planetarium idea.
You can easily add the digital dimension with the dome mirror type system placed on the edge of the dome. This would be less of a problem as the A3P would require "center stage" so to speak.
I would agree that a planetarium with your normal visual program would add substantially to education at your facility. It is a great way to introduce people to what they will be seeing that night and on future nights. Indeed if the clouds come as they tend to do it will contain the disappointment. Volunteers from your club could easily run the system and give the required lectures. You can even eventually develop a series of basic talks that change from month to month and get more of your community interested in astronomy in general and perhaps even joining your group.
Joe Hopkins made a lot of different control systems from as simple as auto dimmers for various lighting devices, to elaborate computer controlled systems that ran the entire show with the audio portion on tape. I have been told he kept all of the schematics in his head so you would need to trace out the wiring yourself if you planed to use the system. A 5 1/4 drive brings back memories of DOS before windows so I'm not at all sure how helpful any of the JHE equipment will be to you if the computer dies.
The A3P control panel should operate independently in any event with the JHE system turned off. That way it would be very easy to give a "live" lecture to your audiences at any time. One handy auto feature would be a slow dimming of the "house lights" as the program is introduced, but one could easily make that a manual operation as well.
Planetariums can be very addicting and I'm sure some people in your group will enjoy it so much as to want the job permanently.
As for the park, it would be something new to encourage the general population to come. Also tickets could be sold to generate income which is always needed. A special discount 12 shows for the price of 10 could lock in cash flow. And they can wright it off as you are a non-profit park. (Perhaps the cost is a suggested donation helping keep the park alive.)
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 16 2012, 08:41 AM
It is more than likely that since the machine is a Spitz (either and A3P or A4) that you have a standard Spitz dome. If it is a 24' (25') dome it may be in panels that are butt seamed from behind and are simply bolted together.
One perhaps quick way to determine the model you have is from its base. Is the machine mounted to a wooden base covered in formica that is simulated wood OR does it have a lighter colored fiberglass more square base around it?
(The former is likely an A3P while the latter is likely an A-4!)
You would also note that the upright support struts on the A-4 are more robust than those of the A3P's. You should not have too much difficulty finding pictures on the web of the A3P's vs. A-4's. Perhaps there are enough on this OC site as well.
There are several things to determine early...
(1) Is this dome made of perforated aluminum or is it fiberglass? (Solid or with millions of tiny holes)
(2) Can you get behind it?
(3) Is it suspended from a series of chains?
(4) Is there a cove with lighting around its base that needs to be removed before the dome can be lowered?
Most domes of this size (24-30') were suspended from chains attached to a BASE RING in sections that overlapped one another.
As mentioned by Ron earlier one of the best ways to remove the dome is to... one by one, replace the main chains with some type of block and tackle systems employing a rope fall, such that you have at least 4 positions from which to lower the dome after disconnecting any other chains. 4 - 1,000 lb. chain hoists will be MORE THAN enough to support the weight. Most of those size domes are less than 2,000 lbs.
You can lower the dome down to within several feet of the floor and begin to remove the base ring and also work further with it without being on a ladder. (As you remove one lower section, then just lower the chains some more to get to the next section.)
If it is a standard Spitz dome in sections YOU CAN WITHOUT BENDING IT actually FLEX it a little if necessary to get it to push through the cove area (if there is one).
CAREFUL PICTURES WOULD HELP HERE... Please post when you have them.
As has been mentioned and I reiterate these machines are all repairable...there are still parts around for them. There are several people and companies that can maintain them, documentation should be around. For a simple demonstration of the night sky they will remain usable for many, many years and will actually outlast any of the current digital technology which will likely only be good for 10 years or so before major upgrades will become necessary.
For your use this is perfect, grab it, and especially don't hesitate about the dome. The dome is a very important part of any planetarium and MUCH harder to come by than machines! mm
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 16 2012, 10:56 AM
It is an A3P from your description (installed in 1968). Yes the dome is aluminum and is bolted and has the chain turnbuckles as you described. The ceiling around the dome is just plaster so won't support an adult. I would think it would have to be removed to remove the dome or at least get to turn buckles after the black cove that supports the mood lighting is removed.
Once the cove is removed perhaps the dome could be supported under each chain (one at a time) and the turnbuckle removed and a hoist installed at 4 of the locations. Then lowered to the ground. Not sure the dome would support an adult but I would think it would need to be removed from the top down. If from the ground up once the bottom layer is removed there would be no way to support the dome as yo worked on the next.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 09:07 AM
KEY POINT...you do not attach your chain hoists to the bottom ring where the current chains are...you attach heavy duty eye hooks in 4-6 locations HIGHER UP ON THE DOMES BACKSIDE leaving the bottom base ring and lowest section of panel free for you to work on. Also remember overall this thing is NOT that heavy, perhaps less than 2,000 lbs. So supporting it from 4 1,000 lb. rated hoists is not that big of deal.
You will attach your chain hoists with "S" hooks high up to the EXISTING chains and then attach the other end higher up on the backside of the dome by removing a nut and bolt from the second level of dome panels and replacing it with a heavy duty eye hook which you will the attach the supporting chain to...this is your support and lifting/lowering point. Generally, this will be all the "high up" ladder work you will need to do. You will likely never need to go all the way up to the ceiling level (which must be around 20'-22')
Again to reiterate...YOU DO NOT TAKE THIS DOME DOWN FROM THE TOP DOWN....YOU DO IT FROM THE BOTTOM UP which is opposite the way it was first put together. THUS, when you reinstall it, you start with the top section, raise it up as you go and attach the base ring LAST.
You will also find that you can remove several sections of adjoining panels at one time (perhaps 2 or 3) set them on the ground and then dissassemble them with more comfort at ground level.
The lower panels are the largest each being 7 or 8 feet tall and about 4 feet wide. (this is from memory which is not always good!)
The remaining sections get smaller (and weigh less) as you work your way up.
You will likely have the dome down in a day. (using 2-4 people)
If you want to talk to someone who has great experience in this, call John Hare, President of Ash Enterprises. Perhaps for just a small fee (or knowing John, if it doesn't take too long) maybe nothing, he can give you a few pointers and perhaps confirm my plan.
Who knows he may even have some documentation and drawings that I've never had.
I do things by the "Mr. Magoo method"....I pretend I know exactly what I am doing, blindly going where few will not tread, and "most" of the time, they work out! mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 10:29 AM
Here are some pictures of the Spitz A3P planetarium (That is Model A-3, with "P" analog planet projectors).
First is close up of machine, the second shows a typical installation. Note pedestal larger top, with tapered bottom in simulated wood grain formica or micarta.
PLEASE ALSO REVIEW PREVIOUS POSTS TODAY. mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 10:33 AM
For comparison, this is the Model A-4 popular in the late 60's early 70's. Very similiar to their later version of the Model 512.
Again, I suspect you have the A3P model. mm
ALSO PLEASE REVIEW PREVIOUS POSTS TODAY ON SUBJECT OF DOME REMOVAL AND MACHINES.
Special note to RW our kind and gentle moderator who will hopefully forgive me for posting things in the wrong subject category and will feel free to move them around to where they belong. (moon having an eclipse!) mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 11:29 AM
QUOTE(moonmagic @ Jul 17 2012, 09:07 AM) *
I do things by the "Mr. Magoo method"....I pretend I know exactly what I am doing, blindly going where few will not tread, and "most" of the time, they work out! mm
If it weren't for the "Mr. Magoo method" I would never get anything done!!!!!!! Thank you, mm, for giving it a name. I'll have to remember to voice my best Jim Baccus impersonation as I launch my next project.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 17 2012, 11:30 AM
Thanks MoonMagic! & yes it is an A3P.
Although it has the deep hole for parking, they quit parking it there years ago due to moisture issues. Does anyone still build a hole for them ar do most people just cover them for storage between shows?
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:21 PM
Gunpowder...Now I have to admit your last post confused me.
You spoke of no longer "parking it in the hole" due to moisture problems. Are you telling me that you had/have a model A3P that was ALSO on an elevator that sunk it into the floor? I've never seen an A3P on an elevator.
FYI- I think Spitz was the first to offer machines on elevators, but the ONLY ones I have ever seen on an elevator were A-4's, 512's and one STP.
There were obvious reasons other than it just looked cool rising up out of the floor.
The main reason was having multipurpose room. You could sink the machine into the floor and close the top keeping people from messing with the equipment. This also cleared the line of sight for the room to use it for other purposes.
Another reason is that some theaters were equipped with motion picture capability and the machine could be PARTIALLY lowered out of the way of the movie projectors lense while still having the availability of the star field or other machine functions.
Only the A-4's and 512's were equipped with elevators, or so I thought, and most of those installations were at least in 30' or larger domes and utilized uni-directional seating or chevron seating, normally with stadium style arrangements.
Now I REALLY want to see pictures! mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:24 PM
QUOTE(Ken Miller @ Jul 17 2012, 12:29 PM) *
If it weren't for the "Mr. Magoo method" I would never get anything done!!!!!!! Thank you, mm, for giving it a name. I'll have to remember to voice my best Jim Baccus impersonation as I launch my next project.
"Thurston Howell III and "Lov-ee" mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 12:24 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 17 2012, 11:30 AM) *
Thanks MoonMagic! & yes it is an A3P.
Although it has the deep hole for parking, they quit parking it there years ago due to moisture issues. Does anyone still build a hole for them ar do most people just cover them for storage between shows?
At the Hopkins planetarium they put in a pit when the A3P projector was installed 40 years ago, even though there never was an elevator installed. I climb down there often to work on the projector wiring, and to pull wires through from the console. The projector just sits out in the open, gathering dust. It gets a "Spring Cleaning" every Fall. There is a rep that comes from Spitz to do the thorough annual cleaning and tuneup. Its all part of the services performed under a maintenance contract with Spitz. It costs about $5K per year for that level of service.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:52 PM
Been around this stuff for years, and yet learn something new frequently. So my next question, how deep was your machines pit?
Since all of the A3P's I've ever seen sat upon that inverted pedestal that tapered from top to bottom, was there room enough for the entire machine (pedestal + machine) to sink completely level with the floor? mm (Spitz developed a very nice chain driven elevator system for their machines) I've seen a big STP sink almost 20' feet below floor level! mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 02:46 PM
QUOTE(moonmagic @ Jul 17 2012, 12:52 PM) *
Been around this stuff for years, and yet learn something new frequently. So my next question, how deep was your machines pit?
Since all of the A3P's I've ever seen sat upon that inverted pedestal that tapered from top to bottom, was there room enough for the entire machine (pedestal + machine) to sink completely level with the floor? mm (Spitz developed a very nice chain driven elevator system for their machines) I've seen a big STP sink almost 20' feet below floor level! mm
mm
I have not seen as much of this stuff as you have. I don't know how unique the Hopkins' installation might be. I have seen many pictures of the tapered pedestals, but at Hopkins the sides are not tapered so that it has plenty of space to sit around the outside of the pit. The pit is probably somewhere between 6 and 8 ft deep. I just realized it's been a year since I was down there, and my memory is a little hazy. I'll try to remember to take a tape measure when I go ever there next week. There is a door in the side of the pedestal and a trap door in the floor above the pit. It's kind of fun to climb through the semi-hidden door in the side of the pedestal, and then slip through the trap door into the pit (cackle, cackle, cackle).
Sometimes I wonder if I am serious minded enough to teach science. I have way too much fun lately doing free-form presentations to kids in the 5 to 9 year old range. They love to veer off on tangents and we end up on some obscure dwarf planet or moon of Saturn or Jupiter. They teach me more about astronomy than I teach them, but we all have a lot of fun. Nightshade is a great program, if you use all of its features. At one point I thought that I had re-oriented our viewpoint to the moon looking back at the earth, but I accidentally put us on the surface of the sun by mistake. We all had a good laugh about burning our feet. I felt sorry about turning the class back over to the more sober-minded regular teacher after the kids were having that much fun.
I need to post some pictures of my latest vertically mounted dish-shaped dome being used for presentations at the Children's Natural History Museum. This setup works well in an existing classroom, and, because I did away with the expensive fisheye optics, it is cheap and easy to set up. But I digress, back to the topic now.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 17 2012, 07:33 PM
I may have a pick before I removed it. The camera I used was a disposable my son used at Boundary Waters that I was finishing up and they are still at the developers.
Yes it is an A3P and has an elevator. It has a casing around the top of the metal frame and the projector lowers below the casing surrounding into the floor but the surround still sticks up in the middle of the room by about 3' high.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 18 2012, 04:01 PM
removed chairs today. took all day. Sadly they are in good to excellent condition. Most people didn't get in there much since 1968.
Glad the park is only 6 miles away from planetarium. 4 truck loads.
they are running internet and electric into the room. Was able to talk to the contractors and school tech guy. Hopefully they follow their agreement not to drill holes int he dome since the ceiling isn't to be replaced (and dome removed) till 2014
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 18 2012, 04:46 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 18 2012, 04:01 PM) *
removed chairs today. took all day. Sadly they are in good to excellent condition. Most people didn't get in there much since 1968.
Glad the park is only 6 miles away from planetarium. 4 truck loads.
they are running internet and electric into the room. Was able to talk to the contractors and school tech guy. Hopefully they follow their agreement not to drill holes int he dome since the ceiling isn't to be replaced (and dome removed) till 2014
Gunpowder
I don't think you said what kind of facility you have where you could install the planetarium. Do you have a place where you can hang a dome that size?
I fear that the time will come soon when the Hopkins Planetarium will have to move out. The number of people that don't see its value greatly outnumber the people who care. The video system that I installed has given it more credibility, but I fear that the infrastructure to keep it going is shakey. Someone will have to deal with saving the remains, and I keep trying to think of options to do that. Unfortunately I am getting older just as fast as the planetarium is, and I don't know if I will be able to take on that project when the time comes. In the meantime I hope to learn from your experience.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 18 2012, 05:35 PM
an open field ohmy.gif
The park (Indiana's first and only dark-sky preserve) is facing a budget issue. Once we get that under control then we can focus on other projects such as this one. The local society (of which I am an officer) is planning an observatory in our observing field. The park board members involved in the removal are thinking the planetarium might make a good compliment to an observatory. Not a big project (or building), just something to compliment the observing public outreach.
So the answer is no building yet. Fund raise for park first, then fund raise for these other projects.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 19 2012, 07:41 PM
Since my "discovery" that several had elevators for A3P's, I have asked around and found they were more common than I thought. Apparently Spitz did almost the same arrangement as they eventually did for a number of A-4's and model 512's. Again, live and learn.
I think your group will still be very glad that they are grabbing this equipment while they can. Dome, machine and seating. You can't go wrong. And the idea of an observatory and planetarium is excellent. mm
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Posted by: Ron Walker Jul 13 2012, 04:08 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 13 2012, 02:11 PM) *
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Hi Gunpower and welcome to OCP.
You indeed have a hole in your head so you will fit in well here. blink.gif
I guess the first question here is do you want a planetarium? Will you be happy with just the traditional night sky or do you want to move at warp speed across the cosmos. If your looking for something to introduce the night sky to your audience, then the A3P is still a great machine. It will be 25,000 years or so before the stars are far enough off to obsolete it. What's it worth? Basically what someone will pay for it. I dumped close to $10K into one and had to completely rebuild it. But then, I really wanted it so it was worth it to me. Others have spent much more and others much less. Moving it from place to place tends to add to the cost.
Parts can be found and systems can be worked around. It could easily continue to work well beyond any of our lifetimes.
So if you want a planetarium, grab it, and we will do all we can to get you up and operating.
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 13 2012, 04:15 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 13 2012, 02:11 PM) *
The local school decided (quietly) to scrap their planetarium in favor of a new computer lab. I think it is an AP3 from pictures on the net. they looked into upgrading it but they claim the 25' dome is too small for upgrade models.
I am the director of a local nonprofit nature park that is a dark-sky preserve. They asked us if we wanted it (vs. trashing it). One of my board members operated it when in school and anther's father was on the school board when they voted to install it in 1968.
We successfully removed all but seats and dome. Seats come out next week and dome in 2014 when they plan to actually finish the ceiling.
Plan A: Reinstall once we build a new building if it isn't further obsolete at that time.
Plan B: Put in display case as an "artifact" of years ago when science meant something
Are parts available for this?
what's it worth?
I wonder if Spitz knows how many are till in operation?
Do I have a hole in my head?
Manuals/wiring diagrams available?
can anyone advise on how to remove the dome?
Hi and welcome to the group.
Yes, parts are available from Spitz and from others who work on and support these projectors.
Spitz has a pretty good idea of how many are left. Off the record, they generally try to see that these machines are taken out of service and not reused at this point. I would guess that there are less than 100 still in service. I get partly involved with the one at the Hopkins Planetarium in Fremont, CA. I often get the opportunity to play around with it after hours.
If you have a hole in your head, so do most of us here on this forum. I think these machines still have a lot of useful value. I know of several people that privately own them.
Manuals and wiring diagrams are around and can be copied as needed.
Not having done it, I can only speculate about the best way to remove the dome. I think you would want to lower it to the floor (admittedly easier said than done), and then remove the panels one-by-one, starting at the top.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 14 2012, 09:20 AM
We have a partnership with the local astronomy society (I'm the VP). We always encouraged a partnership with the local school planetarium but now it won't come to fruit. The society does public nights here at the park and we thought it would compliment it nicely (especially on cloudy nights). Would think one could merge a digital video program along with the old system on the cheap to pull off a reasonable program.
Right now the nonprofit (park) is running a budget deficit so this is down the list. The Astronomical Society is also strongly considering a second observatory on our property to compliment the one they already have on a different property that is now light polluted.
Thoughts would be a simple plan wrapped around volunteers to compliment the visual programming without the expense of creating an urban planetarium and the headaches, overhead, and staffing that entails.
Of course a major donor could change that vision wink.gif
Also note that the system came with a JHE Planetarium Control System but not sure what that adds to the system and it is a 5 1/4 floppy computer system (along with the control boxes)
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 14 2012, 10:49 AM
BTW, Where on this Spitz system is a model number tag? I think it is an AP4 but one of the science teachers from the school said "3" sounded familiar. I find part number tags but no main tag for the entire system.
Posted by: Ron Walker Jul 14 2012, 10:50 AM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 14 2012, 09:20 AM) *
We have a partnership with the local astronomy society (I'm the VP). We always encouraged a partnership with the local school planetarium but now it won't come to fruit. The society does public nights here at the park and we thought it would compliment it nicely (especially on cloudy nights). Would think one could merge a digital video program along with the old system on the cheap to pull off a reasonable program.
Right now the nonprofit (park) is running a budget deficit so this is down the list. The Astronomical Society is also strongly considering a second observatory on our property to compliment the one they already have on a different property that is now light polluted.
Thoughts would be a simple plan wrapped around volunteers to compliment the visual programming without the expense of creating an urban planetarium and the headaches, overhead, and staffing that entails.
Of course a major donor could change that vision wink.gif
Also note that the system came with a JHE Planetarium Control System but not sure what that adds to the system and it is a 5 1/4 floppy computer system (along with the control boxes)
Not at all sure why they say a 25 foot dome is too small for an upgrade. I think they just want to get rid of the whole planetarium idea.
You can easily add the digital dimension with the dome mirror type system placed on the edge of the dome. This would be less of a problem as the A3P would require "center stage" so to speak.
I would agree that a planetarium with your normal visual program would add substantially to education at your facility. It is a great way to introduce people to what they will be seeing that night and on future nights. Indeed if the clouds come as they tend to do it will contain the disappointment. Volunteers from your club could easily run the system and give the required lectures. You can even eventually develop a series of basic talks that change from month to month and get more of your community interested in astronomy in general and perhaps even joining your group.
Joe Hopkins made a lot of different control systems from as simple as auto dimmers for various lighting devices, to elaborate computer controlled systems that ran the entire show with the audio portion on tape. I have been told he kept all of the schematics in his head so you would need to trace out the wiring yourself if you planed to use the system. A 5 1/4 drive brings back memories of DOS before windows so I'm not at all sure how helpful any of the JHE equipment will be to you if the computer dies.
The A3P control panel should operate independently in any event with the JHE system turned off. That way it would be very easy to give a "live" lecture to your audiences at any time. One handy auto feature would be a slow dimming of the "house lights" as the program is introduced, but one could easily make that a manual operation as well.
Planetariums can be very addicting and I'm sure some people in your group will enjoy it so much as to want the job permanently.
As for the park, it would be something new to encourage the general population to come. Also tickets could be sold to generate income which is always needed. A special discount 12 shows for the price of 10 could lock in cash flow. And they can wright it off as you are a non-profit park. (Perhaps the cost is a suggested donation helping keep the park alive.)
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 16 2012, 08:41 AM
It is more than likely that since the machine is a Spitz (either and A3P or A4) that you have a standard Spitz dome. If it is a 24' (25') dome it may be in panels that are butt seamed from behind and are simply bolted together.
One perhaps quick way to determine the model you have is from its base. Is the machine mounted to a wooden base covered in formica that is simulated wood OR does it have a lighter colored fiberglass more square base around it?
(The former is likely an A3P while the latter is likely an A-4!)
You would also note that the upright support struts on the A-4 are more robust than those of the A3P's. You should not have too much difficulty finding pictures on the web of the A3P's vs. A-4's. Perhaps there are enough on this OC site as well.
There are several things to determine early...
(1) Is this dome made of perforated aluminum or is it fiberglass? (Solid or with millions of tiny holes)
(2) Can you get behind it?
(3) Is it suspended from a series of chains?
(4) Is there a cove with lighting around its base that needs to be removed before the dome can be lowered?
Most domes of this size (24-30') were suspended from chains attached to a BASE RING in sections that overlapped one another.
As mentioned by Ron earlier one of the best ways to remove the dome is to... one by one, replace the main chains with some type of block and tackle systems employing a rope fall, such that you have at least 4 positions from which to lower the dome after disconnecting any other chains. 4 - 1,000 lb. chain hoists will be MORE THAN enough to support the weight. Most of those size domes are less than 2,000 lbs.
You can lower the dome down to within several feet of the floor and begin to remove the base ring and also work further with it without being on a ladder. (As you remove one lower section, then just lower the chains some more to get to the next section.)
If it is a standard Spitz dome in sections YOU CAN WITHOUT BENDING IT actually FLEX it a little if necessary to get it to push through the cove area (if there is one).
CAREFUL PICTURES WOULD HELP HERE... Please post when you have them.
As has been mentioned and I reiterate these machines are all repairable...there are still parts around for them. There are several people and companies that can maintain them, documentation should be around. For a simple demonstration of the night sky they will remain usable for many, many years and will actually outlast any of the current digital technology which will likely only be good for 10 years or so before major upgrades will become necessary.
For your use this is perfect, grab it, and especially don't hesitate about the dome. The dome is a very important part of any planetarium and MUCH harder to come by than machines! mm
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 16 2012, 10:56 AM
It is an A3P from your description (installed in 1968). Yes the dome is aluminum and is bolted and has the chain turnbuckles as you described. The ceiling around the dome is just plaster so won't support an adult. I would think it would have to be removed to remove the dome or at least get to turn buckles after the black cove that supports the mood lighting is removed.
Once the cove is removed perhaps the dome could be supported under each chain (one at a time) and the turnbuckle removed and a hoist installed at 4 of the locations. Then lowered to the ground. Not sure the dome would support an adult but I would think it would need to be removed from the top down. If from the ground up once the bottom layer is removed there would be no way to support the dome as yo worked on the next.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 09:07 AM
KEY POINT...you do not attach your chain hoists to the bottom ring where the current chains are...you attach heavy duty eye hooks in 4-6 locations HIGHER UP ON THE DOMES BACKSIDE leaving the bottom base ring and lowest section of panel free for you to work on. Also remember overall this thing is NOT that heavy, perhaps less than 2,000 lbs. So supporting it from 4 1,000 lb. rated hoists is not that big of deal.
You will attach your chain hoists with "S" hooks high up to the EXISTING chains and then attach the other end higher up on the backside of the dome by removing a nut and bolt from the second level of dome panels and replacing it with a heavy duty eye hook which you will the attach the supporting chain to...this is your support and lifting/lowering point. Generally, this will be all the "high up" ladder work you will need to do. You will likely never need to go all the way up to the ceiling level (which must be around 20'-22')
Again to reiterate...YOU DO NOT TAKE THIS DOME DOWN FROM THE TOP DOWN....YOU DO IT FROM THE BOTTOM UP which is opposite the way it was first put together. THUS, when you reinstall it, you start with the top section, raise it up as you go and attach the base ring LAST.
You will also find that you can remove several sections of adjoining panels at one time (perhaps 2 or 3) set them on the ground and then dissassemble them with more comfort at ground level.
The lower panels are the largest each being 7 or 8 feet tall and about 4 feet wide. (this is from memory which is not always good!)
The remaining sections get smaller (and weigh less) as you work your way up.
You will likely have the dome down in a day. (using 2-4 people)
If you want to talk to someone who has great experience in this, call John Hare, President of Ash Enterprises. Perhaps for just a small fee (or knowing John, if it doesn't take too long) maybe nothing, he can give you a few pointers and perhaps confirm my plan.
Who knows he may even have some documentation and drawings that I've never had.
I do things by the "Mr. Magoo method"....I pretend I know exactly what I am doing, blindly going where few will not tread, and "most" of the time, they work out! mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 10:29 AM
Here are some pictures of the Spitz A3P planetarium (That is Model A-3, with "P" analog planet projectors).
First is close up of machine, the second shows a typical installation. Note pedestal larger top, with tapered bottom in simulated wood grain formica or micarta.
PLEASE ALSO REVIEW PREVIOUS POSTS TODAY. mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 10:33 AM
For comparison, this is the Model A-4 popular in the late 60's early 70's. Very similiar to their later version of the Model 512.
Again, I suspect you have the A3P model. mm
ALSO PLEASE REVIEW PREVIOUS POSTS TODAY ON SUBJECT OF DOME REMOVAL AND MACHINES.
Special note to RW our kind and gentle moderator who will hopefully forgive me for posting things in the wrong subject category and will feel free to move them around to where they belong. (moon having an eclipse!) mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 11:29 AM
QUOTE(moonmagic @ Jul 17 2012, 09:07 AM) *
I do things by the "Mr. Magoo method"....I pretend I know exactly what I am doing, blindly going where few will not tread, and "most" of the time, they work out! mm
If it weren't for the "Mr. Magoo method" I would never get anything done!!!!!!! Thank you, mm, for giving it a name. I'll have to remember to voice my best Jim Baccus impersonation as I launch my next project.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 17 2012, 11:30 AM
Thanks MoonMagic! & yes it is an A3P.
Although it has the deep hole for parking, they quit parking it there years ago due to moisture issues. Does anyone still build a hole for them ar do most people just cover them for storage between shows?
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:21 PM
Gunpowder...Now I have to admit your last post confused me.
You spoke of no longer "parking it in the hole" due to moisture problems. Are you telling me that you had/have a model A3P that was ALSO on an elevator that sunk it into the floor? I've never seen an A3P on an elevator.
FYI- I think Spitz was the first to offer machines on elevators, but the ONLY ones I have ever seen on an elevator were A-4's, 512's and one STP.
There were obvious reasons other than it just looked cool rising up out of the floor.
The main reason was having multipurpose room. You could sink the machine into the floor and close the top keeping people from messing with the equipment. This also cleared the line of sight for the room to use it for other purposes.
Another reason is that some theaters were equipped with motion picture capability and the machine could be PARTIALLY lowered out of the way of the movie projectors lense while still having the availability of the star field or other machine functions.
Only the A-4's and 512's were equipped with elevators, or so I thought, and most of those installations were at least in 30' or larger domes and utilized uni-directional seating or chevron seating, normally with stadium style arrangements.
Now I REALLY want to see pictures! mm
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:24 PM
QUOTE(Ken Miller @ Jul 17 2012, 12:29 PM) *
If it weren't for the "Mr. Magoo method" I would never get anything done!!!!!!! Thank you, mm, for giving it a name. I'll have to remember to voice my best Jim Baccus impersonation as I launch my next project.
"Thurston Howell III and "Lov-ee" mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 12:24 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 17 2012, 11:30 AM) *
Thanks MoonMagic! & yes it is an A3P.
Although it has the deep hole for parking, they quit parking it there years ago due to moisture issues. Does anyone still build a hole for them ar do most people just cover them for storage between shows?
At the Hopkins planetarium they put in a pit when the A3P projector was installed 40 years ago, even though there never was an elevator installed. I climb down there often to work on the projector wiring, and to pull wires through from the console. The projector just sits out in the open, gathering dust. It gets a "Spring Cleaning" every Fall. There is a rep that comes from Spitz to do the thorough annual cleaning and tuneup. Its all part of the services performed under a maintenance contract with Spitz. It costs about $5K per year for that level of service.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 17 2012, 12:52 PM
Been around this stuff for years, and yet learn something new frequently. So my next question, how deep was your machines pit?
Since all of the A3P's I've ever seen sat upon that inverted pedestal that tapered from top to bottom, was there room enough for the entire machine (pedestal + machine) to sink completely level with the floor? mm (Spitz developed a very nice chain driven elevator system for their machines) I've seen a big STP sink almost 20' feet below floor level! mm
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 17 2012, 02:46 PM
QUOTE(moonmagic @ Jul 17 2012, 12:52 PM) *
Been around this stuff for years, and yet learn something new frequently. So my next question, how deep was your machines pit?
Since all of the A3P's I've ever seen sat upon that inverted pedestal that tapered from top to bottom, was there room enough for the entire machine (pedestal + machine) to sink completely level with the floor? mm (Spitz developed a very nice chain driven elevator system for their machines) I've seen a big STP sink almost 20' feet below floor level! mm
mm
I have not seen as much of this stuff as you have. I don't know how unique the Hopkins' installation might be. I have seen many pictures of the tapered pedestals, but at Hopkins the sides are not tapered so that it has plenty of space to sit around the outside of the pit. The pit is probably somewhere between 6 and 8 ft deep. I just realized it's been a year since I was down there, and my memory is a little hazy. I'll try to remember to take a tape measure when I go ever there next week. There is a door in the side of the pedestal and a trap door in the floor above the pit. It's kind of fun to climb through the semi-hidden door in the side of the pedestal, and then slip through the trap door into the pit (cackle, cackle, cackle).
Sometimes I wonder if I am serious minded enough to teach science. I have way too much fun lately doing free-form presentations to kids in the 5 to 9 year old range. They love to veer off on tangents and we end up on some obscure dwarf planet or moon of Saturn or Jupiter. They teach me more about astronomy than I teach them, but we all have a lot of fun. Nightshade is a great program, if you use all of its features. At one point I thought that I had re-oriented our viewpoint to the moon looking back at the earth, but I accidentally put us on the surface of the sun by mistake. We all had a good laugh about burning our feet. I felt sorry about turning the class back over to the more sober-minded regular teacher after the kids were having that much fun.
I need to post some pictures of my latest vertically mounted dish-shaped dome being used for presentations at the Children's Natural History Museum. This setup works well in an existing classroom, and, because I did away with the expensive fisheye optics, it is cheap and easy to set up. But I digress, back to the topic now.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 17 2012, 07:33 PM
I may have a pick before I removed it. The camera I used was a disposable my son used at Boundary Waters that I was finishing up and they are still at the developers.
Yes it is an A3P and has an elevator. It has a casing around the top of the metal frame and the projector lowers below the casing surrounding into the floor but the surround still sticks up in the middle of the room by about 3' high.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 18 2012, 04:01 PM
removed chairs today. took all day. Sadly they are in good to excellent condition. Most people didn't get in there much since 1968.
Glad the park is only 6 miles away from planetarium. 4 truck loads.
they are running internet and electric into the room. Was able to talk to the contractors and school tech guy. Hopefully they follow their agreement not to drill holes int he dome since the ceiling isn't to be replaced (and dome removed) till 2014
Posted by: Ken Miller Jul 18 2012, 04:46 PM
QUOTE(Gunpowder @ Jul 18 2012, 04:01 PM) *
removed chairs today. took all day. Sadly they are in good to excellent condition. Most people didn't get in there much since 1968.
Glad the park is only 6 miles away from planetarium. 4 truck loads.
they are running internet and electric into the room. Was able to talk to the contractors and school tech guy. Hopefully they follow their agreement not to drill holes int he dome since the ceiling isn't to be replaced (and dome removed) till 2014
Gunpowder
I don't think you said what kind of facility you have where you could install the planetarium. Do you have a place where you can hang a dome that size?
I fear that the time will come soon when the Hopkins Planetarium will have to move out. The number of people that don't see its value greatly outnumber the people who care. The video system that I installed has given it more credibility, but I fear that the infrastructure to keep it going is shakey. Someone will have to deal with saving the remains, and I keep trying to think of options to do that. Unfortunately I am getting older just as fast as the planetarium is, and I don't know if I will be able to take on that project when the time comes. In the meantime I hope to learn from your experience.
Posted by: Gunpowder Jul 18 2012, 05:35 PM
an open field ohmy.gif
The park (Indiana's first and only dark-sky preserve) is facing a budget issue. Once we get that under control then we can focus on other projects such as this one. The local society (of which I am an officer) is planning an observatory in our observing field. The park board members involved in the removal are thinking the planetarium might make a good compliment to an observatory. Not a big project (or building), just something to compliment the observing public outreach.
So the answer is no building yet. Fund raise for park first, then fund raise for these other projects.
Posted by: moonmagic Jul 19 2012, 07:41 PM
Since my "discovery" that several had elevators for A3P's, I have asked around and found they were more common than I thought. Apparently Spitz did almost the same arrangement as they eventually did for a number of A-4's and model 512's. Again, live and learn.
I think your group will still be very glad that they are grabbing this equipment while they can. Dome, machine and seating. You can't go wrong. And the idea of an observatory and planetarium is excellent. mm